After leaving school at 13, dyslexic, illiterate and bored, Benjamin Zephaniah decided that just wasn’t good enough. He’s spent the last forty years taking control of the English language, writing poetry, music, novels and using words in a totally unique way. Now the proud owner of seven honorary degrees, he is widely considered to be one of the most important and influential writers since the Second World War. Fiercely political, his writings have touched upon race, gender, animal rights, death, drugs, crime and his Jamaican roots. Using his Rastafarian background to his advantage, he takes the philosophies and traditions and uses them in his dub-poetry and music. His other main focus is children, who he has written various novels and poems for, and is deeply involved in inspiring young people to care about the words they speak with and the world they live in.

Have you been to Hong Kong before?
Yeah I remember it’s the place I lost my fear of heights, I just had a real bad fear of heights, and if I ever went to a high-rise hotel, I would just draw the curtains. [Laughs]Then in Hong Kong, I was just in so many high buildings that I just got rid of it. I couldn’t be terrified every 10 minutes of the day! I was doing the tour there, and to be honest, you see hotel rooms and school buildings, but when I go and spend time in a country I just think of those places, and taxis. It’s not really the same as living there.

I’ve heard that you were living in Beijing? Why did you choose to move there from East London?
Well funnily enough it came from that trip to Hong Kong. I was there, and I’d never been to China. You used to be able to go to the border and hand your passport over and go to China for the day, its only for a few hours, and I did it, and when I got there I just kept thinking “I’ve always wanted to go to China, and now I’m in here and I’ve got to go back home!” It just stayed with me. I’ve practised martial arts all my life so I got to that stage where I said to myself, you’ve got to do all the things you’ve wanted to do.

So I went there again, I was working on one of my books, and I told my agent that I was going to write a few chapters while I was away. I was checked into this martial arts school, and I did my training, and finished the novel, came back, and my agent was like “You’ve finished the novel? Ok...Why don’t you spend a bit more time in China?” And it’s funny because my last three novels are all about life in East London, but they were all written in Beijing.

That’s crazy! Did you find that the atmosphere was more inspirational than London then?
No, it’s not because I’m not writing about China. It’s more about being in a place that I like being in. And not having the distractions. I get phone calls from the BBC and stuff saying “Can you appear on the television this afternoon?” and I’m like “No I’m in Beijing” and they’re just like “Oh... OK we’ll leave you alone then.” [Laughs] Having said that, more and more people are got to know about it in the end, and I did end up getting quite distracted. I don’t have the apartment anymore. There’s a journalist at the festival actually – Jonathan Watts – who did a really funny interview with me a while ago. I was at a party, and this woman came over and literally started chatting me up, and then after a while said – “OK actually, my friend over there, he’s a journalist and he wants to interview you” [Laughs] So he did an interview, about me trying to run away from the British press in China, and him finding me at this party. [Laughs long and hard] It was so good!

[Laughing] Yeah I was quite surprised to find that you’d lived there for so long! I associate you so much with London and Birmingham. It was a really nice shock!

Yeah I know, I know. But I mean, even when I live in England now, I live in Lincolnshire, in a small village. I’ve always said I was an internationalist, politically. I’ve always felt I can go anywhere, probably not blend in, because of the way I look, but I feel like I can live anywhere. And when I moved to the English countryside, people were like “But how are you going to settle in to such a rural place? You’re miles from the nearest Jamaican patty shop!” [Laughingly] But I’m happy!

So how did you get involved with the Literary festival out here?
They just contacted me, and asked me. It’s in the middle of a lot of travelling for me; I’ll just be coming from Dubai. And I thought I hadn’t been back to Hong Kong for years...and I had a look at the potential line up and thought – yes – I want to be a part of that.

What do you have planned for it?
Well I’m doing a lot of schools actually. I’m doing more schools than anything, which is partly because I love doing them. I do part performance, part talk. I’m not actually doing a full gig like I would in London. Usually I would stand on stage for two hours, and it’s more of a music concert atmosphere. But this will be quieter. There will be performance in my work, and I’ll take questions from the audience. Yeah, I don’t know if this is a weakness or strength, but I never really know what I’m going to perform until about 15 minutes before I go on stage, and sometimes I change it absolutely. Not when I’m with a band, because they get upset. But if I’m alone, sometimes I see the audience and I want to hit them with something harder or whatever.

You kind of feed off the impression you’re getting and the atmosphere?
Yes! I always say going on stage is a lot like being stopped by a policeman. You take a look at him – are you gonna shout at him? Are you going to be polite? You’ve only got a minute to decide!

Yes, it’s all about first impressions! Although I sense that, as a performance poet, you don’t always want to make the audience feel comfortable?
No, definitely not. Sometimes I start light-hearted and then I’ll end it on a more serious note. I mean, my favourite audience, the one I work with best, is an audience that is slightly out of control. Like I walk into the classroom and the kids are just slightly out of control. If I walk in and they’re all really well behaved the first thing I do is start taking the piss out of the teachers. The audience in the summer, I was touring with Julian Marley – Bob Marley’s son, was one of those rowdy reggae unruly audiences, which I liked, rather than those literary ones who sit there really quietly with their legs crossed and their arms folded.

You’ve mentioned schools there. Obviously a lot of your work has been directed towards young people and children, and even from their point of view. How do you understand how children’s psychology works?
You know it’s interesting, a lot of young people have asked me how I understand them. I was in a situation the other day with some other writers for young people. And I was totally blown away because they said they had to do hours and hours of research for it, and I thought – really? I just remembered what it was like when I was 15! And ok – language change can be a challenge – but I just listen to kids on the back of the bus or something! I haven’t got kids, but my relatives, and in fact all my friends are much younger than me. I’m 53 now; well in fact I’ll be in Hong Kong on my 54th birthday.

I can hang with people of my age – but I much prefer the younger generation. I think it’s because, I have this empathy with them. Youth is a great time, but at the same time, I was speaking to somebody the other day and I heard him say “I don’t like kids” How can you say you don’t like kids? You can’t say you don’t like black people, or women, or gay people. We can’t all be black, we can’t all be white, we can’t all be female, or disabled, or straight, or gay - but we’re all kids. Yet it’s the one group of people that you’re allowed to persecute. This person was only 26 or something! People just get away with it, and a lot of the ills of society are blamed on them. There were parts of my youth that were really difficult, and I found that many adults didn’t want to listen to me – they just wanted to dictate to me. Another really important thing, something that makes me differ from other writers for children, is that they always write with that feeling of – “what is my message”. And I’ll just go “Ok Benjamin, you’re 15 – what do you want to read?” I didn’t like reading – and so I have to think of it from that perspective.

Yes! I remember when I read Face (about a street-dancing boy who suffers from terrible facial burns) I was around that age, and I felt that it totally spoke to me, and didn’t patronise me at all, which was very rare for young adult books.
I want to get down to that level. There was so much in there that was me. I’ll tell you something about that book – a lot of adults said they didn’t like the ending.

What!? I loved the ending!
I know! But they wanted something well rounded. I mean in one way, he doesn’t win the competition, but you know, he’s come out and he’s living his life, and not hiding anymore.

Yeah - it was realistic. He didn’t need to win to be happy!
Yeah, it’s adults that say that to me though. Kids fucking know that life doesn’t work like that. I’ve just gone on Book Club for Radio 4 where they screen you about one of your books. And one of the people there said about my book Refugee Boy – she actually said she’d worked with Refugees – but she said the ending wasn’t well rounded enough. I mean, he’s allowed to stay in the country – which you could say is a victory. But he’s just lost his two parents. If someone said to me, would you rather be in Ethiopia and keep your two parents or would you rather be in Britain and have your mother raped and killed and your Dad shot in the doorway? I know what I would prefer. The book doesn’t say “The End”, it says “This is not the end” – life doesn’t always go to plan, and sometimes winning is actually losing, and losing is actually winning. It’s the children that understand that.

All children? Do children in Hong Kong differ from those in other parts of the world?
Last time I was there, I was at this school, I think it was a girls school, and I remember the front of it was really bushy...I don’t know why I remember that... but after my performance I took some questions. The questions were alright, it was a bit slow, I had about six – which was fine for the amount of time I had. And when the kids left the teachers were like “WOW – you got six questions! I can’t believe it!” Apparently they never asked them before, I’d engaged them more than the teachers had ever perceived. It was normal for other kids in the UK or whatever – but for these little girls – it was them really opening up! [Laughs]

What are the projects you’re working on at the moment then?
Well, I’m not really writing much poetry anymore. But I’m writing another novel at the moment. It’s about kids and computers - angry kids and computers. I’m also just about to start working on the development of a musical about the life of Bob Marley, for the London stage. And when I get back from Hong Kong, I’ll also being doing a residency at the Keats house in Hampstead. And there are all kinds of things I’m doing all the time, you know how it is.

So is this the end of poetry for you? Was that more of a passionate youth love affair?
No no, I am feeling the urge now. And in fact, I am also recording another album when I get home.

Yeah – tell me about the musical side of your career.
Music was always there. Dub-poetry means working with music, that’s where the word comes from: Reggae poetry. So my poetry – you can work with or without music. If you look at my musical output, you can see it’s rather staggered. And that’s because I tend to make an album when I feel the political and spiritual need to do it. When I get my record deal, I do the opposite of what most people do. Most people want three albums in three years. I’m just like “No. One album at a time please. I’ll make another one when I feel like it.” And a lot of people have said that’s why I haven’t been extremely successful commercially with my music, although I’ve never really wanted commercial success. The point of my music is politics; I want to say what I want to say. I make music when I feel the need to speak about something.

Yeah I think if you wait for inspiration, rather than feel pushed by commercial motivations, you’re going to have a consistency in your quality, plus an integrity that you’re only doing it when you want to, which is something you’ve always been proud to do. It’s similar to the principles which made you turn down the OBE – which was considered to be a brilliant and brave move.

It’s just about being true to myself. So few artists do it nowadays, and so few artists talk about it. If you put all the albums together and listen to them, they’re all very different genre-wise. There are reggae, hip-hop, jazz, and funk – its world music. People say – why can’t you stick to one sound? But it’s literary informed music. If I was a novelist I wouldn’t just keep writing the same novel, would I?

So what kind of message do you want to give in Hong Kong? What do you want to say to your potential audience?
People who know me will kind of notice, that I will just tell people who are nervous about poetry, to come and see me. Either come to my gig, or come to my hotel room. [Laughs]

[Laughing] You’re going to have random people coming and stalking you now. Turning up at 3am saying “Help – I’m having an existential crisis! Tell me about poetry!”
I remember doing a gig at Manchester University. And they didn’t have any dressing rooms, and I was sitting behind the stage talking, and this guy said he wasn’t coming to my gig because he didn’t like poetry. So we chatted about why he didn’t like it. And he said it was because of school, and he didn’t like taking it apart line by line, dissecting it. He read a poem and got some meaning from it, and the teacher just told him he was wrong. And then he confided in me – he told me he had some kind of sexual problem. He was studying medicine, especially about limbs and how limbs work – and he said when he was with his girlfriend, and he touches her arm, he just can’t stop thinking about how her arms work, and the blood and bones inside it. And I said that is JUST like poetry! You’ve just got to enjoy her for what she is, and not think about what’s going on...inside...too much. [Laughs] It’s like another time I did a love scene in a film – and now every time I watch one I think – oh how are they doing that?

You’re famous for your love of teaching people about poetry but you’re also pretty famous for your political beliefs. I know you’re very involved with animal rights, and you’re a Vegan. Why?
It just comes from a love of animals really. I agree with a lot of people who talk about the health benefits and the planetary benefits of eating meat. But from all the shit I suffered when I was young – animals were always my friends. They didn’t judge me for my race, or for who I was. I hate it when people say things like “Hitler was an animal” – what animal? An animal wouldn’t do what he did! My politics is driven by the same reason I love animals – its compassion. I hate to see people starving. I hate to see people oppressed. I’m not one of these people who say I just want equality. I could say I want equality with you – but that’s no good if you’re oppressed too. I just want liberation for all of us.

It’s a very simplistic thing, but that simplicity is the reason I can relate to young people. That’s why I wrote Face, I wanted to write about discrimination, but I didn’t want to write about race, or sexuality, or gender. I wanted to write about something we could all relate to – and we all have a face. Some normal kid who gets up in the morning and suddenly his world changes, he’s disfigured, and it’s a very basic thing about identity. We all have an identity of some kind. And what happens when it’s challenged or taken away from us? We look at the world differently. What happens when you’re not allowed to express that personality? When I look at what happened in Egypt the other day...I saw that coming. All these young people, graduates, scared like little children, scared to think. I knew that couldn’t carry on. They’re educated in medicine and computer science, and they’re just sitting on street corners. It blew me away when I went there; I knew something had to give. I’m not saying I’m a prophet or anything, anyone who had been there would have known it.

I know you’re also a big promoter of freedom of expression, especially in relation to dyslexia, and your own personal experiences. You’ve always said people can express themselves.
I’ve always said that dyslexia is not a measure of intelligence. They say that some of the most creative people in the world are dyslexic. But if you’ve got teachers that don’t understand it then you’ve got real problems.

You left school when you were quite young, though, didn’t you?
Yeah I was 13. I have to be careful though, because I get kids saying “I want to be like you – and I hate school” and I have to tell them, you know, I have friends that I left with who are in prison now, because they didn’t make it.

Do you think in a way, having a creative outlet saved you?
Yeah it was one thing. But i had to create it for myself. It was about making the right move at the right time – moving to London from Birmingham. I managed to get in with the right crowd. There were a couple of things where I was really lucky. I met Alexei Sayle and that whole crew who were interested in alternative caberet, and we wanted to start this little movement together. I happened to meet them, and I had to make that move. I was involed in all that crime and gang stuff. Some people say what's the best thing you’ve ever done. And they expect to say, meeting Nelson Mandela or whatever, but it was definitely moving to London. It changed my life.

Hannah Slapper

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